Al...

Thanks for the response to my posting.  I am glad I put my thoughts out there because I truly believed it would be easier to code the forfeiture than what is currently in place.  Once I read your points on why that is actually more difficult, I can see the current penalty system seems the best and least complex approach at this time.

I personally enjoy building the youth players as much as, if not more than, the aged players; there is a sense of accomplishment you don't get with the I-V players.

Thanks to the league for humoring my follow up on this issue.

Prost,

Brian

I agree with Brian about  #2. The disqualification approach is more realistic. So how about if the team with less than 8 youth players is disqualified and its opponent team immediately gets a win. We can choose an arbitrary score of 1-0 plus the credit for SBYs and APPs.  The disqualified team doesn't get any injuries or bookings.

But if this seems more complicated to code for Allan, we'll settle for the current rule.

Abe...

I think you and I are in the minority when it comes to this subject.  Still, just to talk it through in theory only:

• Score of the game would have to be 0-0
• SBY/APP's for the "winning" team would get credit for playing in a match (e.g. QNL, FIT)
• SBY'APP's for disqualified team would get no credit for that match

Still just talking theory, especially since I understand you have to code this Al and it's more work than it is probably worth.

When considering what is 'realistic,' you'd have to also consider that any team who played in a real league and failed to field an acceptable team for a Cup match would face monster fines from the league offices and severe penalties elsewhere in terms of lost gate and concession revenue from that match, possible loss of sponsorships, massive media backlash, reduced sales in merchandise for all but the most die-hard fans (who already have all the stuff they need anyway), etc. etc.  So any simple forfeit by itself cannot take into account all of that.  For gameplay purposes, going off what is 'realistic' here won't help much.  In United, there are a different set of variables to account for:

Every match impacts both teams' chances of winning in the following session and beyond.  Cases in point:

Suspensions can occur in any match even if not playing hardness

Injuries can occur in any match when not playing hardness by either team

Sby/Apps have to take the field to get experience to get their SL up

A player appearing in a 3rd match (4th if GK) will lose one FIT after the match is done

Winning teams get 10 CP and drawing teams get 5 CP, which directly influence fitness and SL as the season moves along

Any consideration of a forfeit would have to account for all of those (and others, anyone?).  For example, Brian proposes the draw as a result.  So the team that forfeited still gets 5 CP?  And the other team gets cheated out of a chance to earn 10 CP for a win instead of just 5 CP for the draw?  Or you shift to the 1-0 win as a match result so the CP issue gets worked out.  Sort of, for now the other team gets handed 10 CP they didn't really earn?  The 'unfairness alarm' is starting to go off in my head.  Also, for the game programming purposes, who gets the shot and score so the database matches up?  There isn't a "team goal" column to slide it into.  Further, Sby/Apps get credit for playing, but does a team's 3 older players still lose FIT if that would have been the 3rd match they appeared in that session, even though they didn't actually play?

And how do you account for that "winning" team and forfeiting team not risking injuries/suspensions like the other 28 teams will be doing, which could directly impact league results in the following session (as suspensions typically hurt worst in the first game or two of a session when the player is actually out)?  Is there a way to balance out that gift they were just given so that the league competitions are not unduly influenced?

As Al says, I'm not trying to shut down the conversation here.  I'm writing out what comes to mind as issues that the current system accounts for that a forfeit does not.  Any forfeiture system needs to at least take a stab at those points, so Abe and Brian can put the brain trust together and see what they come up with!

Haha, Kevin, I like that response.  You are far and away the most prolific writer and knowledgable participant in this league from my perspective.

I think after the points you and others have made, it seems best to maintain the status quo regarding this issue.  My brain is very tired now and I must rest in preparation for four matches during tomorrow's session.

Best of luck to all...except Hereford in our YC match.

Yes, I agree as well. It seems that Kevin covered all aspects of the pros and cons of the potential rule changes.  Thanks ...Kevin. Allan is doing a fine job for us already and we sure don't want him to feel obligated to do any unecessary changes.  -Cheers!
 

I am going to say that if a team does not show up for their match then it makes sense that the team will not be at risk of injuries or suspensions.  I think since we are only referring to the Youth Cup that the one game the forfeiting team "rests" their players is hardly worth the loss which means the following:

• no CP gained
• no QNL credit
• FIT as if the match was played/no gain in FIT (could be a coding issue here)
• no goals scored and I think the forfeit score should be 5-0
• humiliation from the rest of the league (optional)

The team will be out of the Youth Cup and this situation won't have to be dealt with more than once a season.  The team getting the "BYE" will definitely not be risking injury/suspension either and in that team's case it is fair.  Pretty sure we're all competitive so no team should just lay down for another team plus the bulleted points above are a big hit.

I'm afraid I'm firmly in the camp that thinks that forfeiture is a really bad idea since it doesn't achieve much and would require Al to do an awful lot of programming, especially to deal with giving appearances to youth players (and who says a team will only have seven youth players?).  Otherwise if I'm a coach who gets through without playing I'm going to be really miffed that my youth players missed out on the golden opportunity that is the Youth Cup.  And I won't have played them in other games that session because I didn't know that the other team weren't going to turn up.  (Not turning up could become a deliberate tactic to really harm someone's youth development, by the way.)

Since we're considering "what if" scenarios that in all likelihood will never happen...

How would the forfeiture system work if BOTH teams failed to have 8 youth players?  Would the program have to give out two losses for the same match?  And then a team next session gets a "bye" because an odd number of teams advanced, which is not a benefit because they don't get to play the youth in a match and get no CP?

Following inline with theoretical train...I imagined all these forfeiture scenarios would still allow the "winning" team (i.e. the one who fielded a full youth squad) to still receive CP and QNL.

If both teams had to forfeit, then yes, the next team would get a bye and receive 10CP for the"win" as well as QNL for those players entered into their lineup for that session's match.

I'm just saying....

I'm no programmer... oh wait, I am one... but I would think the IF scenario is fairly simple.

As Brian indicated, I would not dream of voting for a forfeiture is the team that does shows up and adheres to the rules would lose out on ANY thing.  The only loss for the winning team would be the opportunity to pummel the other team.  Real-life scenario... I don't know... maybe they scrimmage with each other therefore they still get the appearance (QNL credit).  

Everything would be as a played game except there is a predetermined score and no penalty/injuries - since the other team in essence never takes the field.  CP for the win, QNL for APPs and SBYs, even FIT lost if the 3rd game if everyone really wants that also.  To me it makes sense that the injuries, penalties and other in-game aspects get lost because in fact no match was played - seems to be the more realistic approach to me.  NOTE: I do not actually watch soccer to often so perhaps I'm way off on how things are handled.  Just "hard-code" all the values - the winning team DOES lost the ability to build/pad stats but hey they're absolutely avoiding injuries and suspensions.  Granted a no hardness style team is unlikely to worry about such things.