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Firing Managers
Posted by Allan Sellers on Tuesday, Jan. 19th, 2010 at 3:52 AM

How's that for a controversial title?!?!?!   No, I'm not talking about firing Ian...  

One thing I like about these games is the ability to develop a team and show improvement from beginning to 'now' in terms of how they are doing.

One thing I think I'm getting frustrated with a bit is (maybe this is the MSWL Al talking if I can refer to myself in the third person in a megalomaniac sort of way)...getting a team to be pretty good...and then the slow steady climb down from the mountain as everyone else gets better/smarter than me while I become mired in the mud.

While I'm not interested in taking on a reclamation project now (and nor should I be with the rebuilding Bees in 5th place..."won't you play your C-teams against me?")...and traditionally my team is rebuilding every year...as you know...

Do we need something in the game to allow for some appropriate managerial movement around?  Maybe its just done when a coach feels like they need a new challenge?  Maybe it needs to coincide with a new manager?  Maybe a 3rd division manager wants a 1st division job?  Maybe each 1st division team needs to meet a set of expectations or their manager gets sacked (i.e. if TRA doesn't win all titles Alon is sent to manage a 3rd division team)?

To be clear, I'm not trying to throw anyone out.  But rather allow for some movement around between teams in a way that would be good for all.   And I want to have a little discussion around it.  At some point you achieve what you want and need a fresh start to relight the fires.  I'd like to have some path towards that in our league.

I know, I know, how about in the next poll we say something mean about Ian...again...

Readers Comments

I personally enjoy the idea that I will steer the BHA ship for many seasons to come.  I expect some ups and downs and look forward to reflecting on a full body of work someday, much as Alon will (uh, what did I just write..?).


I like things the way they are right now with respect to this matter.

Brian Beerman on Tuesday, Jan. 19th, 2010 at 7:28 PM
 

I would LOVE for something like this to be put into place. We would have to create a list of "objectives" (would need to be pretty extensive)  and define how they can be met. Then, we would need to define when the particular objective would be selected (i.e.- it wouldn't be realistic for a team that ranks last in their division for T11 to have an objective to win the division). The definitions could be weighted (so that there is a much bigger chance for Alon's squad to have the "win the division" object than it would for say Al's team). 

From there, we would decide what to do for when managers meet or do not meet the objectives. There could be financial or CP based incentives to meet objectives and negative financial / CP incentives for not meeting some of the objectives. If a manager fails to meet all objectives, he is "sacked" and has to take on a 3rd division club. 

Rob Peterson on Wednesday, Jan. 20th, 2010 at 4:29 AM
 

Doesn't this assume that there is a 3rd Division manager who wants a 1st Division club?  If I'm a crafty 1st Division manager I run my team into the ground in the pursuit of glory, knowing that I might just get one of those 3rd Division clubs that some kind soul has already started rebuilding.  What a terrible idea!


Now some kind of reward for over-achieving sounds good.  But don't you get that already through the extra CPs that you've earnt for doing well?

Andy Bate on Thursday, Jan. 21st, 2010 at 11:30 AM
 

I'm fine with the idea of a manager getting "fired," except for that whole involuntary termination part of it...

A particularly horrible season's worth of luck could see a manager fail to meet any realistic goals for their team.  I would likely be very miffed if I was booted from a good team that hadn't achieved what I wanted yet, especially if they had a decent shot at winning something next season.  Watching another manager benefit from all my hard work would not be particularly fun if I didn't willingly give up the team.

However, if a manager wants to step down or wants the pressure of possibly losing their team if they don't meet some performance goals this season...

Perhaps signing up for a Hot Seat List at the start of a season could be done?  I could see signing up for two reasons: 1) I was tired of replicating the same formula for doing very well with one team and yet never quite getting over the semifinals hump to win a title.  A fresh start would allow all the little league victories to feel big again instead of just being expected wins and only getting satisfaction from winning a Cup or Division/League Trophy.  (Please note that CRD is not there yet. We're not really that good. It's all smoke and mirrors.)

2) In order to add a feeling of intensity to every match that may be missing after a few seasons of mid-table and quarter- to semifinal performances, having performance goals to meet would add emphasis to each and every game instead of having a few "throw away" matches or "maybe next year" results throughout the season.

For example with #2 there, if you signed up for the Hot Seat List then your Board of Directors would set some goals like Division Finish (win it, top 3/promotion, mid-table, not-last, certain number of wins, etc.), Cup finishes (quarterfinals in at least 2 Cups, semis in one Cup, win a Cup, win just one Cup match - any Cup match!, etc.), SL goal (avg. T11 at least 10.00, have 6 players at SL 12+ by season's end, max out at least 4 Apps and 4 Sbys, etc.), $ goal for the offseason (get 1000k in the bank or else, have more money than Rob P. or else, etc.) or any other goals we can come up with like "Win vs. PLY at home and Win or Draw vs. PLY on the road" to add in that Rivalry flair that we're having trouble coming up with any other way of working into the league.

If you fail to meet more than half the Hot Seat requirements (and there would have to be at least 4), you would be on the list to switch teams.  If there were at least two managers who failed to meet the goals for the season, then the names would go into a pot and be drawn out so everyone swapped clubs.  If there were just one, then Al would have to OK with scrapping a team entirely and re-starting it with an expansion roster in the 3rd Division.  Were it a First Division club, then that would require moving up the fourth place teams from Div 2 & Div 3 up one division to make room.  I really hope that they wanted to get promoted in that case because they are very likely to be immediately relegated again...

The alternative to that kind of program would be managers deliberately seeking out other managers who would be willing to swap teams and then getting creative in some blog posts to explain what happened.  That works too.  The Hot Seat List would be fun to watch and track all season long though.

Hot Seat criteria would be set by?  Manager polls?  A team of 3-5 managers setting realistic goals for an opponent?  A panel of managers chosen per season to set goals for all teams on the Hot Seat List? CRD's patented Performance Spreadsheet and Ranking Program (and yes, we have one.  Phil's seen it though he had to sign a confidentiality waiver first)?

While I'm not sure I'd sign up such a list as early as next season, I could see doing so in the near future regardless of whether we can nab another trophy this season or next.  Sounds like a very fun twist to the league as it develops.

Kevin Martin on Thursday, Jan. 21st, 2010 at 6:54 PM
 

Short posts... must learn to make short posts... can the program impose character limits for CRD in the future to help said manager learn the practical meaning of "brevity"?

Kevin Martin on Thursday, Jan. 21st, 2010 at 6:55 PM
 

> "each 1st division team needs to meet a set of expectations or their manager gets sacked"

In essence, a good idea.   Practicality may get in way.  As others have suggested - how do you judge?  OK, you stayed in Division but bank may be zero!

How about 3 seasons to make an impact in Div 1, then if team/manager not progressing, he is not 'sacked' from game but just swops with a lower division manager at Commish discretion.

Managers moving around teams within same league set-up is a good idea I think.
May keep the 'freshness' and encourage managers to stay in United longer/forever.

Mark Creasey on Friday, Jan. 22nd, 2010 at 11:05 PM
 

I really like the idea that I would retain BHA for several seasons, regardless of the ups and downs.

Brian Beerman on Saturday, Jan. 23rd, 2010 at 2:11 AM
 

Wait a minute, I already said that.  Wow...I am really tired.  C-Ball...I need some time off.

Brian Beerman on Saturday, Jan. 23rd, 2010 at 2:52 AM
 

Why not at the end of each season just ask if anyone wants to step down from their position as manager but stay on in MSWL, and then co-ordinate the "open positions"? I mean, there need to be rules in place...

John Holden on Saturday, Jan. 23rd, 2010 at 7:53 AM
 

Personally I think the only sackable offences should be more than 3 NMR's or abuse of the forums/blogs/journals etc.

Dave Dowson on Monday, Jan. 25th, 2010 at 5:16 PM
 

Dave...When you say "abuse of the forums/blogs/journals etc.," do you mean something like including loads of emoticons in a forum or blog post?

Brian Beerman on Monday, Jan. 25th, 2010 at 6:40 PM
 

I'd like to reiterate two key phrases that Al started the discussion with:

First, "allow for some movement."  Please note he did not say, "force some movement."

Second, "relight the fires."

I think what Al is shooting for is a voluntary post change.  Brian's fears of being forced to move, or Dave's concerns about someone being 'sacked' against their will are not at all what I believe Al is gunning for.

Could a renwed interest in the league  with a new team be achieved just by managers asking around if someone else wants to swap clubs?  Possibly to Likely.  And yet we could have so much more fun with this idea!  Is there any real negative to a manager putting themself on a "hot seat" list to start a season to 'relight the fires' and motivate them to either succeed or move on to another club and fresh challenges?  What could be worked out would be whether the seat that goes from "hot" to "roasted" means that a team just switches managers or gets scrapped for an expansion team that starts over in Div 3 - again, not involuntarily.  This is with the departing manager's blessing.

Stopping now before I'm accused of abusing said forum posts...

Kevin Martin on Tuesday, Jan. 26th, 2010 at 12:32 AM
 

Hahaha...nice ending, Kevin.

Brian Beerman on Tuesday, Jan. 26th, 2010 at 8:41 AM
 
 
 
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