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MSWL United Competitions and Schedule
Posted by Allan Sellers on Thursday, Jan. 29th, 2009 at 4:14 AM

Hi guys,

I believe we'll have 30 teams, so 3 divisions of 10 teams each.

In addition we can have youth cups, league cups, etc.

See the rules for the 'original authors ideas' and give me yours.

We'll have 10 sessions with 1-2 (generally 2) league games in each session.

So I need ideas on the cups and then we need to determine how to mingle them in with league games each session. 

Al

Readers Comments

If we assume ~50 matches, and we're running 3 matches per session, this would make the league run ~17 weeks long, or approximately 4 months. If you allow for a potential week break here and there and end-of-season "commish" stuff, it's probably expected that the league would run for 5 months. I think that sounds good.

League Cup 

I think we need to figure out the structure of some of these Cups...

For the League Cup, the rules are rather confusing for the structure. They state:

There will be a one-leg knockout format, with semi-finals and final at neutral venues.

Working backwards from the finals...

Finals = 2 teams
Semis = 4 teams
Knockout = 8 teams

Does that mean that there is no group stage? If so, 1 knockout round isn't sufficient.

Does that mean that there is a group stage, but only 1 knockout round? With 30 teams, you need 5 groups of 6 to make things even. In order to satisfy 1 group stage, you need 8 teams. That would mean the group winners advance plus the 2 top 2nd place finishers. That doesn't seem like it would foster a lot of competition - after just 2 games, the teams at the bottom of the group wouldn't have much of an incentive to continue on.

The best solution is probably having the top 3 from each group and the best 4th place finisher advance to a 2-round group stage. The first round would have 16 teams, and the 2nd round would have 8 teams, thus having a smooth finish.

My proposed solution calls for a maximum of 14 potential Cup matches. Add that to the 18 League matches, and we have 32 matches.

 

Youth Cup

I like the idea of the Youth Cup, but am concerned about the penalties... Teams are allowed 2 over-age players, meaning they must have at least 9 SBY/APPs. If we're assuming 18-25 players, that's between 1/2 - 1/3 of a team's players must be Youth players just to avoid penalties in the Youth Cup. 

 

X Cup / Shield

What sort of options are there here? A Divisional Cup perhaps?

 

Friendlies

I assume that managers would be able to schedule friendlies on their own to take place during the Cup competitions for teams that have been eliminated?

Rob Peterson on Thursday, Jan. 29th, 2009 at 7:38 PM
 
Sorry Rob, I wasn't clear and will try to write more later. The general idea though is for 10 sessions. So all cups will likely be straight knockout with no group play. Perhaps 1 could have group play. Overall though my guess is teams will get 22-30 games. Al
Allan Sellers on Thursday, Jan. 29th, 2009 at 10:24 PM
 

 How do you do a straight knockout with 30 teams? The numbers don't add up without byes...

Rob Peterson on Thursday, Jan. 29th, 2009 at 11:42 PM
 

Why do you think I'm asking you guys? 

I can figure out the easy stuff, but this...is a little more complicated.

There will need to be byes like X teams in round 1 while X teams sit...X teams join the round 1 winners in round 2 while X teams sit.

The idea being that for some competitions its random, for others the best teams sit out a round or two... (like the FA Cup, right guys?).

Anyway, I'm going more of that route here...something different than MSWL itself.

Al

 

Allan Sellers on Friday, Jan. 30th, 2009 at 2:19 AM
 

 ok. gotcha... surprisingly, I don't have an answer. I'll need to do a bit of research / thinking. 

Rob Peterson on Friday, Jan. 30th, 2009 at 3:40 AM
 

Simple solution to the problem is for the GM to add 2 'non league' teams. They should be about 5% weaker than the lower division sides.

This then gives 32 teams. Perfect for a straight knock out over 5 sessions! You could even consider 2 leg contests and then the cup competition would run the whole of the 10 session season. Easy Eh?

Trevor Taylor on Saturday, Jan. 31st, 2009 at 1:23 PM
 

Yes, its VERY easy for Mr. Taylor who doesn't have to code any of this mess. 

I've never embraced the 'non league' teams concept with open arms.  I know since we're doing a United format I should...but I just never have.    I'll consider it though for this.

In addition, hang on for a moment on the planning as I want to see how many orders we actually get in.  I hope to have an update on the number of teams in the next couple of days. 

Al

Allan Sellers on Saturday, Jan. 31st, 2009 at 2:02 PM
 

If not adding non-league teams then it has to be byes. In SESL, 48 teams in 3 divisions, the 1st division get byes for the Cecil Cup. In PSFA with 30 teams, the Cup and League winners from the previous season got byes.

If we go with 30 teams then it could be 2 random teams that get the byes - or the best 2 teams from the testing stage

First thing is to see how many teams start then work it out.

Steve Turner on Saturday, Jan. 31st, 2009 at 4:57 PM
 

If we use byes perhaps we could auction them off?

 This an idea borrowed from a United league I played in where entry to the early rounds of a cup was open to 'bribes' (ie an auction). In that case the intention was to get into the early rounds for playing opportunities for young players.  With fitness an issue missing a match might be important to save fitness. 

James Tucker on Saturday, Jan. 31st, 2009 at 6:03 PM
 

 2 teams get a bye, leaving 14 matches between the 28 teams. The 14 winners advance, along with the 2 teams that received the bye, and thus you have a nice, even tourney.

The idea of auctioning off the byes is quite intriguing... I don't know if I'm completely behind it, but it's intriguing. In PFSA, we gave the byes to the past year's league champion and Cup champion as Steve indicated. However, those clubs would occasionally complain that it was more of a disadvantage as it prevented them from coaching and they lost revenue. Auctioning off the byes would solve that... 

Rob Peterson on Saturday, Jan. 31st, 2009 at 6:26 PM
 

 personally I dont like the sound of auctioning byes ( Byes are usually earned by the better teams )  but I could go for a draw to determine the two bye teams. Again this depends on how many teams we have I guess.

As a sugestion Al, how about creating a couple of extra League teams with the standard set up formula/parameters, just to use as backup for Cup matches to make up the numbers. These teams just sit on the fence, no coaching or improvements. They play on a standard NMR gameplan & go into the draw with the other teams like a 'pair of jokers'

Dave Dowson on Saturday, Jan. 31st, 2009 at 8:50 PM
 

The way United runs, as I read it, there won't be lost chances of coaching. A player can only be coached once per session anyway.

As for lost revenue then bye teams could get a participation bonus - assuming there is such a thing.

Steve Turner on Saturday, Jan. 31st, 2009 at 10:38 PM
 

 We're going to have an AP Cup and a league schedule. What further Cups will we have and what consideration should we give to Friendlies?

Rob Peterson on Friday, Feb. 13th, 2009 at 9:41 PM
 

You'll see those in the latest copy of the rules.

Al

Allan Sellers on Friday, Feb. 13th, 2009 at 11:27 PM
 

 I see the schedule for the league and the various Cups in the Rules. Thanks!

Rob Peterson on Monday, Feb. 16th, 2009 at 10:54 PM
 

 The Youth Cup allows for up to 3 non-youth players to be used per team. Is there an age limite to these players? I'd like to recommend Age I or II as an upper limit so as to not have Age IV SL 14+ players appearing in matches against a team that was able to field a squad of all youth players, who's average SL is around 4 or 5. 

Rob Peterson on Thursday, Feb. 19th, 2009 at 8:50 PM
 

I imagine that even if you've got 11 or more youth players available, you'd still be allowed to field 3 older players anyway.

The rule is there, you would hope, to make sure more teams can compete effectively in the Youth Cup than would be able to if it was just purely youth players only allowed. As opposd to if you've got them, you must play them.

I can't imagine having a rule that penalised you in the Youth Cup for having a good, youth policy.

Obviously you'll need to actually have 3 non-youth players available as well, but that surely won't be a problem.

 

 

David King on Friday, Feb. 20th, 2009 at 1:00 AM
 
 
 
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